Criss Christoff Smith is a storyteller, actor, guide, and business maven. After spending his first 10 years on a farm in rural Jamaica, Criss moved to Brooklyn, where he spent afternoons getting lost in books at the Brooklyn Public Library at Grand Army Plaza. Now, he lives in Queens, where he works to uplift stories of Black, Brown, and Indigenous people as founder of Longwish Productions.
His journey has been rife with twists and turns — from the library, to college, to Wall Street, and lots of other locales on the way. After working in financial services for over 25 years, Criss is glad to have a new focus — acting, writing, teaching, and more.
Having finally found his voice when he came out as transgender and transitioned six years ago, he wants to use it as much as possible.
Below, you’ll find a transcript of our conversation, edited for clarity and length. The music on this episode was composed by Asher Kurtz and Ella Joy Meir. Sound design, mix, and mastering are by Ella Joy Meir. Interview is by me, Mikhal Weiner (plus a quick hi from the wonderful Asher!). As always, this would be impossible without the work Sage USA does every day to provide support to queer elders across the United States.
Criss: I am very excited to be here. Thank you guys.
Mikhal: Oh my goodness, it's our honor and pleasure! Let's just start at the top. Can you tell us a little bit about growing up, how many siblings `you have ,where you grew up, anything you remember about your childhood, that kind of stuff?
Criss: Yeah, sure. I was born in the Caribbean. I was born in Jamaica, the island of Jamaica. I have a total of six siblings now, but when I was growing up there was only four of us. And my dad moved us to the country to live with my grandmother on her farm because my mom decided to leave him. She left and went to the UK and left us with our grandmother. So, I grew up on a farm, having to get up at 5:00 AM to move the sheep, and take the chickens out, and so forth. Very rural. It was very interesting. But it's interesting how the roles — in terms of talking about trans and who I am — the roles are very defined in that type of environment, because it was very church driven and so forth.
But my grandmother… She must have known something because she always had me in the role of a male in terms of not having to do dishes, not having to cook. I was always out with my brothers, you know, hunting birds and dealing with the animals and so forth. So her wisdom — she must have known something since I was five or six years old that I didn't know then.
Mikhal: Wow. She had an intuition.
Criss: So I moved here to the United States at the age of 10. After my mom left the UK, she decided to move to America because she always loved American movies. So, she had us migrate over to Brooklyn. So I grew up in Brooklyn, going to school there, and did not like it at all.
As a matter of fact, I have a story… when I was about 12 years old, I got up one Saturday morning and here we were in an apartment in Brooklyn, and I hated it. I hated the cold, I hated everything about it. So, I got on my brother's bike and decided to ride to JFK and get on a plane. I didn't have everything figured out, obviously. I rode from Brooklyn all the way to Nassau County.
Mikhal: Oh my God.
Criss: And it was dark at that time. I knocked on someone's door and, and said, you know, “I think I missed the airport.” So of course, they called the authorities and got me back home. But I was trying to get back to my grandmother's farm.
Mikhal: Wow, so you were raised in rural Jamaica until the age of 10. Just hunting, and living with your grandmother, and hanging out with your siblings and just all sunshine.
Criss: And then at the age of 10, being from all that [I was] being put in this environment where there's this white thing coming from the sky that's called snow, and it's cold, and I'm like, “What the heck is that?!”
And there was no outdoors type of activities because we just basically spend most of our time in our apartment. We would just go out to go to school, and to the grocery store and back in. And it's like, what is this? This is annoying. Wow.
Mikhal: And suddenly you have to sit in a classroom. And to sit still all day instead of running around all day.
Criss: Yeah. Right. Very different existence. . Even though I was in school back in Jamaica, but it was very different.
Mikhal: Right. I would imagine it was a different culture and different paradigm.
Criss: Exactly. And the kids teasing me because I had this Jamaican accent, which I think I still have, but even Jamaicans don't know that I'm Jamaican.
Mikhal: Where in Brooklyn did you move to?
Criss: In Clinton Hills area. Two blocks in from Eastern Parkway. So, not too far from the Brooklyn Library. As a matter of fact —that library where Jay-Z has the exhibit? Most of my childhood [was spent] in that library, because I would come home from school and go right to the library. And I'm an avid reader, so I would just read and escape.That library was my sanctuary back then.
Mikhal: So, during that time you were living with your mom and four siblings?
Criss: Yeah, I have two sisters and I had three brothers, but two of them passed away, so only have my youngest brother left.
Mikhal: Oh, wow. Where are you living now?
Criss: I'm in Jamaica, Queens.
Mikhal: From Jamaica to Jamaica.
Criss: Exactly. And you know what? It's so ironic. This is how amazing life is. From my window, I can see the planes taking off from JFK. When I came here with my older sister, Anne-Marie, to show her the apartment and we were looking around, I said to her, “This remind me of when I was 12 and I was getting on the bike trying to get to JFK. I finally found it.”
Mikhal: Do you ever go back and visit the island?
Criss: Oh, yeah, I was down there in March. My grandmother has passed on quite a while ago, but I do have some land that I inherited that my mom keeps bugging me all the time that I have to do something with. My grandmother's house is still there and I have some distant cousins that are there, but most of my other relatives are throughout Europe and New Zealand — and a nephew in Kenya.
Mikhal: Wow. All over the place. So, [when] you were living all of you, together in Clinton Hill, where was your dad at this time?
Criss: So, within all this, my dad passed away and that was the reason why my mom came back to get us.
Mikhal: Got it. So, she came back from the UK and went to live her best U.S. movie life in Clinton Hill.
Criss: Yeah, exactly. And believe it or not, she was working as a maid and she was in parties where she had to serve, like, Harry Belafonte and, and Sidney Poitier. So she was living her love. Even though she wasn't, you know, making movies… but just to have the opportunity to meet them.
Mikhal: Yeah… And you spent your childhood just reading books.
Criss: Yeah, just trying to escape.
Mikhal: Tell us a little bit what you were trying to escape.
Criss: Yeah. You know, because I knew that there was something different about me. I never really felt I fit in. Because kids at school were very different. I thought they weren't really astute as they should have been. And I didn't really fit in. So, I think at that point I was trying to find myself, to find out who I am and why am I here. I didn't feel comfortable within my old self, within my old body as well. Yeah. So, there was a search from that place as well, and I think I spent most of my adult years just being broken. Just not finding my authentic self.
Mikhal: Yeah. So, you always kind of had a feeling that something was different?
Criss: Oh, yes, yes, yes. I never felt comfortable within my body. When I went through puberty, that was a nightmare, because I did not feel like this is all mine. I hated having boobs. I didn't know what those things are and the other changes in my body. I just wanted to just take the whole thing off. Get rid of it. Find some other mask or something to wear because this vessel was not mine.
Mikhal: Yeah. That's such a good way of saying it. It's that there's like a soul and a vessel and it's just a mismatch.
Criss: Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, my soul inside was saying, “Where are you? This thing that you are wearing around every day — it’s like wearing an armor of clothing. It doesn't fit you.” And I never felt fit until I finally had the transition late in life, because I'm a late bloomer. I'm absolutely a late bloomer.
Because I studied hard, my guidance counselor — Anne Bender, I will never forget her. She filled out all the paperwork in high school and she gave it to me. She says, “All we need is your mother's signature, because you have the grades. And you are going to Skidmore College.”
I didn't know where Skidmore was or anything, 'cause I was always very quiet in class. Didn't talk much. So, she filled out all the paperwork. She says, “All I need is your mom's signature because you're under 18, so you could go to the school.”
So, my mom took me one day with my suitcase up on the the bus to Saratoga Springs. She gave me $40 and says, “Okay, go, do well, and that was the last $40 that my mother ever gave me.”
Mikhal: Holy Moses.
Criss: Yeah. And so I just struggled and got through school. My oldest sister, she would send me money sometimes, but I worked my way through and I made it.
Mikhal: Yeah. Wow. So what number are you in the siblings?
Criss: I'm number four. I have two brothers, and a older sister that's older, then me.
Mikhal: Okay. And then there's another sister and then the baby brother.
Criss: Yeah.
Mikhal: What year were you born and how old are you, if you don't mind sharing?
Criss: I was born 1960 and I'm 63 years old. The greatest thing about being born on a decade is that you never forget your age.
Mikhal: Note to self, I'm gonna have my next child exactly on the decade. So, I wanted to ask about Skidmore College and, and kind of what led you there, but I also wanna ask — wait, so you were 17 when you went?
Criss: Yeah.
Mikhal: And did you know that you were gonna go in there studying math, and sciences, and that kind of stuff? Or did you figure that out after you arrived?
Criss: I went in as a pre-med major, because my mom, at the time, she had studied and at this point she was working as a nurse. Freshman year I had chemistry, physics, you know, biology, all these courses. And I was doing well at it.
In my sophomore year, I took a business course and that's when the switch happened. I was like, wow, this is actually a puzzle. It was a course about business cases and we basically had to solve the case of figuring out the number of employees and so forth. I was like, “Wow. So you get to calculate this and use different skills. It's not just knowing biology, it's not just knowing chemistry.” So I absolutely loved it and, and decided to start taking every course that I could possibly take in business.
Mikhal: That's incredible. And you ended up with a Bachelor of Science, is that correct?
Criss: Yes. Yes. Bachelor's of Science in Business Finance. And you know what, a few months ago I had my 40th reunion at Skidmore College. And I went back as Criss, where a lot of my classmates didn't know who I was.
So, I basically went up there with, with a picture of my yearbook photo and they were like, “Wait a minute, you look familiar.” But I'm like, “Yeah, this was the person that you knew then,” and it was just amazingly warm. The incredible reaction and the warmth that I got from all my classmates was amazing.
I mean, even 40 years later, it, it was just amazing. It was a lot more than what I got at the time that I was there as a student. Really, really warm. As a matter of fact, a classmate called me about a week after and said she heard an interview that I did for NPR Radio. She was driving and she was like, “Oh my god, Criss, I just heard you on the radio! Keep going. We just heard you.”
Mikhal: That is so awesome. That's so interesting that you say that you feel like you received more warmth this time around and I'm wondering about how we interact with the world when we're not at peace with ourselves, you know? And if there's something kind of emanating from ourselves when we're not at peace with ourselves, that doesn't allow people to connect or doesn't allow people to get as near as potentially they could. I don't know if that resonates at all.
Criss: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Because you have a false sense of connection, right? It's not truly all of you. You are just connecting from the shell basically. It's not an inner connection, you know, because you haven't done that. Because I hadn't done that myself, in terms of having that overall connection. And I hadn't found my authenticity.
Yeah, at that point… when I was 17, 18 year years old and I'm in college because I was just going along basically, yeah, just floating — and at many points just floating on ego, because I was a smart kid and I played sports, and so I would just float on that in terms of the popularity there.
Yeah, and those somewhat shallow connections because I wasn't fully within myself as well.
Mikhal: Yeah. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the jobs that you did as you were working your way through Skidmore and kind of a little bit more about that time when you were at college?
Criss: Yeah. In college I actually worked in the cafeteria 'cause it was a student work program. I also worked in the library in terms of putting books back and so forth and assisting in some of the art courses. And at the time I was on the girls' basketball team. I played my first two years on the basketball team, and I also played soccer and did rowing as well.
Mikhal: Oh, wow. How did you have time to do all of this and be pre-med? I'm like basketball, rowing, working three jobs, and the soccer team….
Criss: Yeah. It was amazing. Really was. But you know, you don't know where the energy comes from, but you just jump in and try to do as much as you can.
Mikhal: Mm-hmm. Did you miss your family back home? Were you, were you in contact with them?
Criss: You know, my older brother and sister would take the van and, on the weekends, just ride up to Saratoga and visit and send care packages and so forth. But I also made a lot of friends, because I was part of the International Student Union and of course at the time, and still do, Skidmore has a lot of international students. So I've cultivated a lot of very strong relationships that I still have to this day. I have a really good friend who lives in Malaysia that I went to school with, and Italy, and Moroccom and so forth that we still have a strong relationship.
Mikhal: Wow, that's beautiful. Of course you're part of the International Student Union, in your spare time between soccer and rowing. Let's talk about that process of realization, assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, that underneath all of this, there's an undercurrent of — “Who am I? What's going on?” Which at one point evolves into, “Oh, I'm gay.” Can you talk about that process of realization and then how that led to a process of, “Hmm, maybe that's not the end of the process.”
Criss: So the realization of being gay happened at Skidmore, and that was a tough, tough battle for me because you, you know, with the whole church thing and heaven and hell… [I thought] I'm gonna burn in hell. And my mom was always strict about going to church and so forth. So that was difficult. I didn't come out to my family until after I graduated and I started working, and I introduced my mom to one of my lovers.
She did not speak to me for a whole year. So, it was total isolation in terms of my mom, but my siblings were very, very supportive. So, that was somewhat comfortable for me in terms of being a lesbian because I knew that there was something there […] that there had to be more.
But I still wasn't quite fully myself, and that took years and years of discovery. Because at the time, in the ‘80s and ‘90s, being trans just seemed like something that was so far away. It wasn't just a financial thing, but it wasn't readily a available. For just anyone. You didn't have like, like a center like Sage or a healthcare like Callen-Lorde to go to. And there was no one that I spoke to that I knew that ever had any type of transitional change.
You know, because for me it wasn't just a matter of looking a certain way, you know, wearing a short haircut cut or dressing very butch and so forth, because that was my way of dressing anyway, especially outside of the corporate environment. I just knew that there was more, there was more. There was still a huge dissatisfaction. Internal dissatisfaction.
I transitioned almost eight years ago, which is very, very late, and this is after being outside of the corporate environment. This is after I didn't feel that I had an institution that I had to please in terms of working for a firm, or having to live up to a certain expectation. Because I feel my entire life has always been, “Okay, well, if you do this, how are you gonna live? How are you gonna afford the lifestyle that you currently have? Can you continue that?”
Yes, it was a lot about finances and also the entire look of “How are you gonna have a career, if you actually go through this change?” So, it was about eight years ago where I wasn't working in the corporate environment as much. Because once I stopped working as an employee, I was working as a consultant. And then a very good friend of mine who is a pastor, said to me one day, “Why do you keep fooling people?” And I'm like, “What?” He's like, “You speak and you deliver one way, but when they turn and look at you, it doesn't match.” And I'm like, “Well, what are you talking about? He’s like, it doesn't match, and there's something in you that you're not letting out.” And so I had to go and I would really think about it.
And then I started meeting other people in different organizations that were trans. And I started talking to them about their experiences. And I said, you know what? Yeah, let's start out slow. At the time I was married, this was probably about two years into my marriage, so now how do I tell my spouse that I want to go through this change? So, first of all, she did not deal with it very well. She was not happy. So, going back to having to reevaluate myself and think, “Well, or are we still in that mode of being a people pleaser or are we gonna really find out who Criss really is?”
So it took a lot of soul searching. I had to sit down think about it. And then I said, “You know what? I am doing this.” And from the first time I started taking T, and then once I had the top surgery, I felt like I was reborn. I was like, “Oh my God. Where have you been? This is you.” This is absolutely you. This is the you that we have been waiting for. And I haven't turned around since.
You know what? I actually belong to one of the Sage trans [support] groups, we, meet every Thursday, and there's a woman there named Pearl. Listening to Pearl's story — she's older than me, she's in her seventies. She said she used to go to Fire Island every weekend. She would only wear dresses and so forth on Fire Island, and one day she was getting ready to come back on the ferry from Fire Island to Manhattan and [said to] herself said, “Pearl, I am not taking this dress off.” And she hasn't taken a dress off since.
And basically that's how it happened. It's like all of a sudden there's this switch, there's no real rhyme or reason, but it just happens. Once it happens and you sit in it.. it’s just like a brand new, comfortable sheet that's just wrapping you. The comfort is like, unimaginable, unimaginable. You just finally open your eyes and, and your heart and your like, oh my goodness.
Now I can't imagine being any other way. I cannot imagine ever being any other way. And what I battle with is, why did I wait so long? Why did I suffer for so long? Why did I allow myself to suffer for all these years before getting here?
Mikhal: Wow. When you first came out, or when you first realized that you were gay back in college, you mentioned that there was a big struggle because you were raised in the church and the church had all this fire and brimstone in it. Was that struggle also internal? Did you believe that there was a part of you that was sending you to hell or was it from more external from your family or both?
Criss: It was a combination of both there, because I believed in the church. I had been in the church with my grandma since I was six years old. So, I believed that I was going to hell. As a matter of fact, every time I slept with a woman, I didn't know if I was gonna wake up that morning and be still alive. I was very strong in terms of that belief. But that's part of the indoctrination, right? That we go through — the government, the politics, the heaven and hell. And it's so intertwined in terms of the way we think and feel. That takes years to unlearn. I am still working on it.
It takes years to unlearn that and to realize that I am enough, just as I am. It takes years and years of practice. Right now I'm a practicing Buddhist, and I've been doing that for a while, and I've done a lot of meditation and so forth. But it's work. It's constant work, because that indoctrination is so intertwined in our psyche that it's hard to just wash it away.
Mikhal: After school, you have this degree. How did you end up on Wall Street?
Criss: You know this was ‘80s, so Wall Street was everything. It was interesting because a lot of the students would say, “Well, you know, you could talk to my uncle or or my cousin,” but I was always very driven and, and very stubborn. I was like, “Nope, I don't want any help. I am gonna do this on my own. I don't want any introductions.” But anyway, yeah, I applied and started working and I just went in, started from the bottom, doing transfer agency work for a couple of the banks, and just kept moving up and working very hard. But at the time I was, and perhaps still am a little bit, was very driven. It was always about, the bottom line, I have to get this done. I have to. There’s no stopping me. My favorite phrase at the time was: Failure is not an option. Which I've learned later on, that's not too healthy.
Mikhal: It can definitely drive some interesting choices.
Criss: It was always about push, push, push. I have to achieve, I have to achieve this, nothing stopping us. There's no reason why I can't. But I think it was part of me being so dissatisfied with myself, that I was so driven to always prove that I can do even more. I never gave myself a chance to just sit. Just really think about, internally, what do I want? It was always about the accolades, and the plaques, and so forth, and just going after that.
Mikhal: Yeah. I'm imagining a young person experiencing a lot of discomfort in their own body, and maybe not wanting to experience that discomfort. A young person working, you know, 10, 12, 14-hour days on Wall Street. You know, that's a really, really good way to not get in touch with your body.
Criss: That's right. That's right. Because you don't have time to feel. You have absolutely no time to feel — you're just doing. You're just doing, but at the same time, you're just floating around on ego, right? It’s all ego at this point. And then I found myself being a people pleaser and, you know — I have to get this done because I gotta get to this marker and so forth. And then, after a while, I became outside of myself. As the years went on, I didn't recognize myself anymore. Not at all. I was like, “Who is this person?” So when I did take time to take a vacation and just stop for a minute, I was like, “Wait, who is this person?”
Mikhal: How many years were you in the game?
Criss: For 25 years. 25 years.
Mikhal: That's a long time! I thought you were gonna say like seven years. That's a long time Criss. Wow.
Criss: 25 years of the dog and pony show. And the whole timeI was a miserable lesbian. I had all these girlfriends and everyone thought, oh, you know, “She's so nice.” No, no, no. They always said, “Well, you know, she's driven, it's work. Just disregard her being not a nice person today.” And, you know, and that was it. Yeah. I was not a nice person.
Mikhal: Oh, wow. That's hard to imagine, I have to say.
Criss: And then after a while here I was, managing large groups. I, mean, at Citigroup, one of the largest group of the largest teams I managed was 400 people globally. I had 5:00 AM calls to Hong Kong and Singapore at home — at the time I had a home in Scotch Plains, New Jersey — and then I would get on the train and go into the city. After those 5:00 AM calls. And work another 10, 12 hours. And it was constantly like that.
But I've learned that after all those years, it was my escapism. It was me escaping, not taking time to really think about myself. And, of course, I suffered a lot of anxiety and, and all this other stuff. And next thing I know, I have high blood pressure and just all these health issues because I wasn't taking care of myself.
Mikhal: There are definitely health risks to ignoring the self. Were you out at work at like Citigroup or…?
Criss: No, I wasn't out until JP Morgan Chase, so, when I was at Citi, I wasn't able — that happened later. So, that happened, I would say probably about 2010.
Mikhal: 2010. So, since you were born on the decade, you were 50 before you were able to be out publicly.
Criss: Yeah. As far as work. As far as work, you know, there, yeah.
Mikhal: But you were spending 14 hours a day at work, so that's a lot of hours a day to pretend to be straight.
Criss: That’s right. A long, long time. Too long, too long.
Mikhal: Yeah. I would imagine that the corporate environment of the 1990s and 1980s was not conducive at being out and gay.
Criss: You cannot imagine, because back then women could not wear pants. Think about that. Women could not wear pants. You had to have a skirt or a dress on.
Mikhal: Wow. Yeah. That must have felt horrible.
Criss: You could not, that was not part of the corporate culture. And this is not talking about being in management, just being at work, period. You could be a secretary, you know, anything. You could not wear pants, could not wear pants.
Mikhal: And I'm sure there was misogyny everywhere.
Criss: Oh, yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. The things that I've heard and seen is… it's amazing, [there’s] also a big shift in corporate culture since then. You would not believe it. I remember, even in 2010 when I was at JP Morgan Chase, I came in one day and I had a tie on. One of the senior managers said to me, “I can't even get the guys to wear a tie. How dare you wear a tie?” So I took it all.
Mikhal: Wow. Yeah. And, it sounds like you found Buddhism at some point. That was gonna be my next question, whether you're able to have a spiritual practice now, even after this whole process of self-discovery and how that relates to the spiritual upbringing that you had?
Criss: Yes, yes. Absolutely do. And now I look at the old church thing from the more historical standpoint, in terms of the history of where that comes from and the indoctrination of that in terms of our culture, yeah. So, now I am able to separate it from myself personally and have not just Buddhism, also Yoruba, some of the African religions that teaches you that God is inside of you. We're all Gods. We all have that energy, that spirit inside. There's no external thing. And once we find our connection, that's what makes us great.
Mikhal: When I was researching you a little bit online, it seems like there's kind of the era that's all business and consulting and managing a team that is essentially a small town, like 400 people. And then, at some point, there is Criss the actor who has an IMDB profile and a production company. So I'm curious about the connection between those two things and how they relate potentially to coming out as trans, if at all.
Criss: In terms of all our experiences, right? We all have a story. We all have experiences we have gone through in life, and I think you have to tell your story because it absolutely connects you to other people, to other experiences. But I think, at this point, this is my purpose — to tell my story.
Just as I'm working as a substitute teacher and those high schoolers that I sit down with, I tell them about my experiences in the corporate environment, and and how this happened, and this is the things you have to go through. But at the same time, it's part of the journey in terms of the things that you need to help you to lead you to that end. Because it's the corporate discipline that has gotten me to be an actor, that has gotten me to start researching, to go through this transition thing ,and to actually follow it through, and to experience that change.
There's a deeper connection here. There is a deeper connection that needs to be tapped into. And once you have the know-how and the discipline to go through it, to follow those steps, the results is amazing. And that's what gets you to your end goal. So, I think it's all part of those steps throughout my journey that if I hadn't gone through all those, I wouldn't be here now.
Mikhal: Yeah. And that's what's allowing you to come into all of these roles, and be an actor, and create this production company. Longwish Productions.
Criss: Yeah. You know, because the area in Jamaica where my grandmother's house is, in the country, it's called Long Wish District. And the fact of me being who I am is my long wish.
Mikhal: I love that.
Criss: So that's part of the, the reasons why that name came to be.
Mikhal: I also love the mission of Longwish: “To produce content that echoes black and indigenous people's voices.” I was wondering if you could talk about that mission statement a little bit.
Criss: First of all, I think the storyteller is the most powerful person on the planet. So, I think it's important for People of Color, or anyone, to tell their own story. Don't wait for someone else to write it. Right? Because if I was to write a story about you, it's gonna be based on my assumptions of what you are.
I think it's important for us to tell our own story, write our own story from our own experiences. That's the only way to get the true picture because — like some of my ladies from Sage — we have a meeting every Thursday and it's for an hour and a half, and for most of that time they're telling stories.
And those stories have helped me to understand them so much better, because my impression of what a trans woman is, was so much different than these stories that these ladies tell. You know, they give you such detail and such understanding that I wouldn't have had. ‘Cause I always thought, oh, well, you know, these ladies you referred to them being street walkers and doing this — and some of them did.
But to hear their side of it, and experiences that they had, and so forth from their point of view — there's nothing like that. It’s so authentic, it's real. It's no longer fiction.
Mikhal: It creates opportunities for empathy and compassion that, strip away those assumptions — or you debunk those assumptions. And then, you know what's left is the humanness. Right?
Criss: Right. Exactly. It's just like, I've been to Kenya, Africa three times. Before I went, I was under the impression that I'm gonna meet — 'cause I volunteered in an orphanage — that I'm gonna meet these kids that have flies swarming around them and they're all like naked and hungry. And it was absolutely not the experience once I got there. That's just what's on TV, right?
Mikhal: You went to Kenya three times?
Criss: Yeah, three times. The last time I was there in January, my nephew got married. His now wife is from there. But yeah, actually, the first two was to volunteer in an orphanage, and I do sponsor some children from there as well.
Mikhal: Wow, that's amazing. What brought you to that?
Criss: A a friend of mine, she was going, and, and you know, she was looking around and said, “Well, you guys want to go?” Finally I decided, I said, “You know, let me go and experience it myself instead of just having this view of these children.” And like so many of my experiences having to help or to give back, I find that those children teach me instead of me teaching them. Because you go with the assumption that, “Oh yeah, I'm gonna save them. I'm going to teach them all these great things and they're gonna learn.” Now, they have taught me so much about compassion. When you meet a six-year-old who's doing their own laundry, and they have to go gather the water, but they're happy…
Mikhal: I'm thinking of 6-year-old you out in the farm, in the countryside. You know, hunting your own birds, but very happy.
Criss: You know, I'm just hanging out with my siblings. It’s amazing because we used to get up at five because we have to put the sheep out [to pasture] and the chickens out of the coop. But once we finished with that work, my brother and sisters and I, we would turn the radio on and we would start dancing and singing. We'd have, my gosh, such a great time before 6:00 am. And then turn around, and get ready for school, and get our little books, walk to school with smiles on our faces because we were so happy.
Mikhal: That sounds incredible.
Criss: It really is. And life is good. That's one thing that I've learned: Life is so good. It's all about us trying to find ourselves. And, in the end, we'll all realize that we are so connected. It's here. Yes, it's here. It's in our hearts that we're so connected. This is where the magic is — right here.
Mikhal: What kind of shifts have you seen in the L-G-B-T-Q community over time? As someone who has inhabited various spaces in the L-G-B-T-Q community and has just been a member of the community for a long time?
Criss: The young people make me very happy. Oh my God, they are so magnificent. They're fearless. They are so fearless. If I had an inch of that fearlessness when I was their age — because, especially in the high school environment, what I see is that — 'cause I remember when I was in high school, no one wanted to mention anything about gay. It was like the worst word. It was really bad.
But now they're like, “Oh, well, you know, Frank is gay.” So what? He's gay. “Mary's gay.” Well, I wasn't trying to get with her. Who cares? They don't care. They are so fearless and I love that. That's one change that I — because I have friends who are in their seventies who are still hiding. Who still goes to their mother's church, because their, their mother's in their nineties and they gotta go to church with mom, but they can't have that conversation with mom. Mom don't know who her son is that's holding her hand going into church.
Mikhal: And that is a hard conversation, as you know. You didn't talk to your mom for a year.
Criss: Yeah, exactly. But there are people who are still wrapped up in that fear and, and I actually was thinking about in terms of health. That is so painful to keep all of that inside of you. This is why we suffer so much from high blood pressure — because it's not just a cultural thing.
It's not being able to disclose yourself, and you're keeping so much hidden, so everything is bottled up. And once everything gets knotted up in your stomach, it causes this disease. That’s where the disease comes from.
Mikhal: Yes. You have a good relationship with your mom now?
Criss: Yeah. Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, it's amazing. Last week I introduced her to Trader Joe's for the first time. But I don't see her often. She's 91 years old. She go shopping, but you know, she has her little supermarkets that she goes to, and I'm like, “Mom, you're spending 89 cents a pound for bananas. Come, let me show you Trader Joe's,” she's like, “Oh my God. Oh my goodness.” We have a much better relationship now. She introduced me as her son, and that's all I want.
You know, sometimes when I speak to her on the phone, she say, “Oh girl.” But I disregard that. Because when I'm with her, and we out in public, she's like, “Oh, my son is here, my son is gonna take me here.” That's all that I can ask. And at this point, she's 91.
Mikhal: What was it like coming out to her the second time?
Criss: It's so, so funny because we never had a conversation. It wasn't any special thing. She was like, “Oh, okay, so that's you. You have all the facial hair.”
Mikhal: Not even after top surgery?
Criss: Yeah. We never had a conversation about it. At this point she had. Settled in on knowing that I was definitely different. So I think she prepared herself.
Mikhal: I feel like the older people get, the more perspective they have. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I remember when I came out to my grandmother, my parents were so stressed the whole way there. I mean, they were so stressed that she was gonna freak out or have a heart attack or something. And it was like the most anticlimactic conversation of my life.
I mean, I told her that I was gay and she was like, “Okay, are you still hungry? Can I get you some food?” And I just feel like there's something about older people in their nineties, where they're just like, “You know what? I've lived the better part of a century. What does it matter? You know?” And maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.
Criss: As long as you're healthy, you're fine. And are you hungry? That's always the number one. Can I get you more food? You want something to eat? Every time I walk in. As soon as I walk in she comes, “You want something to drink?” She calls me Crissy. “Okay, Crissy.”
Mikhal: Do you have a message for young folks, queer and otherwise?
Criss: Don't get caught in the container that society tries to build for you, that box, you know? Open it up. Look around, 'cause there's so much more. There's so much more. And reach out and touch the person next to you, or across from you. And especially those who don't look like you, but reach out and touch those people and just spend some time trying to really get to know them. The magic is here. It's in our hearts. And that's our connector. And once we connect from that space, yeah, we can allow space for others.
Mikhal: We should allow space for others. Do you feel that you had to pay a price personally or professionally, either the first or the second time that you came out? And do you feel like it was worth it?
Criss: Yeah. I feel that I've paid a price most of my life and that's my internal battle in terms of the time that I lost being inauthentic. I waited so long, too long to sit in my authentic self.
Mikhal: I wanted to ask a little bit about attitudes towards trans folks, because I feel like internally, and again, correct me, but it, I feel like internally within the L-G-B-T-Q community, there's a lot more acceptance of trans folks as a central part of the community than maybe there was 50 years ago. I'm saying this is a 37-year-old, so I wasn't there 50 years ago. But externally, I don't think, I don't think anyone would disagree that sentiments towards trans folks are becoming, not becoming, are alarming. I'm just curious what, what your take is on that, those two processes that are happening in parallel to one another and opposed to each other. I'm just curious what your take is on that, why that's happening and, and how that's happening and what we should do about it.
Criss: I think there's a new awakening, right? There's a new awakening for People of Color, for indigenous people, and I think that the L-G-B-T-Q have fallen within that category as well. Because years ago there was a separation between being gay and being trans, and now it has gotten much, much better. I know someone who is a trans woman, and she was outed. She was modeling as a cis-woman and she was outed by a gay man. Very, very painful. I think with this new awakening, people are coming back together.
I think there's an age of trying to bring people back together and — let's just try to think more compassionately. I always think that hurt people, hurt people, right? There’s been so much pain. There's been so much hurting, and hiding, and people have been quivering and afraid, and I think there's this new awakening in that we can actually help each other. I don't have to step on your toes in order for me to feel better. Right? I don't have to hurt you in order for the pain that I'm having to stop happening. That's what I feel is happening. It's a new-old awakening. We actually can help each other. We can hold hands and get through this.
And maybe that scares some people. Because it has been very scary that the painful thing that's been happening to just so many people in general, and we've had this time to sit and ponder it over. That's, that's the good thing about this pandemic, it forced us all to sit down and started really looking at things a little bit differently and saying, “Wait a minute, you know, people are being hurt, people are being killed, and that's not right.”
Mikhal: It's not right. Yeah. Asher, is there anything else you wanna ask before we wrap up?
Asher: I have gotten so much beautiful insight and information from this. I applaud both of you. Criss, you're such a special person. I'm really inspired by your story and I think a lot of other people will be too.
Criss: Oh, thank you so much, Asher.
Mikhal: Thank you. Of course. As you said, the, the storyteller has the greatest power, and I love how many ways you're learning to tell your story. It's really special. I feel like, you know, as artists we've become interested in different things or as we evolve, we're always finding ways of telling our story.
It’s beautiful to see you on that journey, to hear about all of those ways that you are sharing insights and allowing others to understand their story. As Asher said, I'm beyond moved and just I feel very grateful to have the opportunity to hear you speak, not only to tell your story, but also to share the wisdom that you've garnered over the years. And thank you. For taking the time to speak with us this morning.
Queer Sages is an oral history of queerness, told by LGBTQIA+ folks in their own words, for posterity. Through in-person, audio, and video interviews, Queer Sages is (hopefully!) creating a body of material that tells the stories of LGBTQIA+ elders from all walks of life.
We owe a huge debt of gratitude to Sage USA, a national nonprofit dedicated to improving the lives of LGBTQIA+ older people, as well as to the Digital Transgender Archive, whose dedicated archival work informed our research. Most of all, we are endlessly grateful to the generous sages who share their lives and wisdom with us.
If you want to help LGBTQIA+ seniors across America access the healthcare, housing, and community they need, there’s an easy way to do just that! Even $3 a month helps keep Sage USA a thriving national organization.
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